Ratbeard on Jul 13, 2015 wrote:

1) Doubloons will be ON for Test Realm. Because we have the ability to selectively turn powers on and off in Ranked PvP, we want to gather the test realm data before we make any broad decisions on Doubloons.

2) It is unlikely that Black Fog will receive any change at all, prior to at least one season of ranked; and if it is changed in any way, you can be sure that it will be done to minimize the impact to PvE.

Please play on the Test Realm when it is available-- there are other changes to PvP that will influence the way that everything works; and some of you may need some time to recalibrate your strategies.

The "3 round duration" being discussed here is not on the radar-- in the first place, because that directly affects PvE, which has been explained enough already, I hope. In the second place, a change to duration it doesn't actually address any of the supposedly broken aspects of the power (eg, it still has "no counter," and it still doubles the damage of the entire team).

To sum up, you can all (PvP and PvE) be confident that if it is going to change at all, it will be done to minimize the impact on PvE players, that any "fix" actually addresses actual balance issues with the power, and (hopefully) it will be done with one bullet.

gg we fought, i won

Am I reading that right? You defeated a Swashbuckler who had access to Black Fog? I was led to believe that was impossible.

Ratbeard,

Will we get an appearance from you around the PvP houses during the test realm? Oh, and if you happen to test 2v2....you should probably bring One-Eyed Jack instead of Decius.

Wolf SkullRider on Jul 14, 2015 wrote:

First off, that comment wasn't directed at any person in particular, it was merely me stating my opinion on this, honestly now, almost ridiculous discussion.

As for my matches vs you, I don't know if you realize but I have always played WITHOUT fog, as it's always been central rules for a ladder/tournament. I am not one who uses fog often because I have adapted to NOT using it so much that I've grown to simply to not include it in MY playstyle.

Also I was being extremely general, so you shouldn't take my posts so personally like "I know the meta, I've beaten you". I am just stating that a lot of people are probably overlooking a lot of things that factor into pvp (yes luck) and being successful in a certain meta. Just another thing, having companions like Baar Nausica Goronado and other bears is already a big shift in your favor. It's all about knowing the matchup. I would challenge you to a match (no doubloons no gaze) but I don't think I will prove anything more than I already have.

Step 1- Knowing the Meta
Step 2- Knowing Matchups, Companions and Gear

Again this is general and I know you, Rob, know these things, but this is a community forum, so I am just giving my 2 cents where I feel it fits nicely so no need to take whatever I say so personally.

if your giving your 2 cents i'll give you my 3 cents so your not broke, and if we were to do a match i'd say only no doubloons since gaze seems like it will be allowed where as due to the broken op nova blaster strat(one of many horrors from the minds of me and tech) i dont think doubloons will allowed or at least limited

Wolf SkullRider on Jul 14, 2015 wrote:

While I am at it, I guess I will just finish off my thoughts on this thread's content after Ratbeard has stated his argument.

The 5 keys to being successful in PvP (in MY opinion)
1- Knowing the Meta
2- Knowing Gear/Companions/Matchups
3- PRACTICE and exposure to different strategies/scenarios
4- Be OPEN TO changes and facing different
5- Have FUN

I see a LOT of people shining so much negative light on a lot of things, but in the end PvP is ultimately about HAVING FUN. I understand how certain strategies can be absolutely frustrating to deal with over and over, but if you aren't at least trying to ENJOY yourself then what is the point? Being "the best" duelist means nothing unless one can be OPEN to new changes and ways to deal with scenarios.

I also see a good number of current notable duelists treating these threads and topics like it is an absolute necessity that certain things NEED to be changed. What if they dont, and everything stays the exact same way? My message to those people, you can give your thoughts and opinions, but ultimately you have no control over the path the game takes, that is the job of Kingsisle.

I haven't grown to be too fond of the current wizard101 meta, having played that game forever. I didn't "give up" because thinga were crazy. I didn't throw in the towel completely (I like pirate101 more right now), but instead I ADAPTED to the changes the game brought forth. I went from a first age overlord to stuck at sergeant in the second age. The point I am trying to get at is that things ARE going to change, and if you can't be OPEN to that or LEARN enough about the meta, you aren't going to go very far.

PvP must haves:
Positive Attitude
Knowledge (of meta/gear/companions etc.)
Adaptability
FUN

Don't get me wrong I am very competitive when it comes to pirate101 and I love a good duel, but without some basic attributes and an open mind, I don't see how one will get very far.

Maybe the solution is a lot simpler than people are making it seem...

Wolf, I simply must applaud your post. I wish more PvP players shared your views & laid back, have fun kind of nature.

I don't PvP but I really like reading PvP threads because I do enjoy learning more about the game, combat & strategy. Let's face it, whom better to learn from than those that devote tons of time to mastering the art of P101 combat. I do admire PvP enthusiasts & their impressive skill sets. To be among the best, in anything, is quite impressive.

But what gets me is those that feel the need to brag & boast as if they single-handedly paved their own way towards becoming the best. Even those that are self-proclaiming themselves as the best, surely did not get there on their own, sole accord. I am quite sure they watch & copy other players' strategies, check out videos on social sites, catch wind of the best gear, test strategies with friends and other players, imitate tactics they saw, purchase so-called OP companions, use other players to get great PvP pets/grants/traits, use superior exploits discovered by other players...& so on & so on. Yet many speak as if they made it all the way up to the peak of the mountain without getting carried a bit by others...despite it being an obvious group effort. When so many put forth so much effort to make PvP the glory that it is, does being the absolute best (at any class or overall) really matter, when in fact you are merely a culmination of ALL PvP enthusiasts' hard work.

Wolf, you summed it quite well. A game, especially one for a younger audience, should be about the FUN. So many of these threads turn into a puffing of the chest, bragging rights type of declaration, when in the grand scheme of things, does it really matter? Competition is all well & good, but we shouldn't lose site of the FUN, especially in a virtual world & game.

(continued...)

ValkoorTheVictorio... on Jul 14, 2015 wrote:

Wolf, I simply must applaud your post. I wish more PvP players shared your views & laid back, have fun kind of nature.

I don't PvP but I really like reading PvP threads because I do enjoy learning more about the game, combat & strategy. Let's face it, whom better to learn from than those that devote tons of time to mastering the art of P101 combat. I do admire PvP enthusiasts & their impressive skill sets. To be among the best, in anything, is quite impressive.

But what gets me is those that feel the need to brag & boast as if they single-handedly paved their own way towards becoming the best. Even those that are self-proclaiming themselves as the best, surely did not get there on their own, sole accord. I am quite sure they watch & copy other players' strategies, check out videos on social sites, catch wind of the best gear, test strategies with friends and other players, imitate tactics they saw, purchase so-called OP companions, use other players to get great PvP pets/grants/traits, use superior exploits discovered by other players...& so on & so on. Yet many speak as if they made it all the way up to the peak of the mountain without getting carried a bit by others...despite it being an obvious group effort. When so many put forth so much effort to make PvP the glory that it is, does being the absolute best (at any class or overall) really matter, when in fact you are merely a culmination of ALL PvP enthusiasts' hard work.

Wolf, you summed it quite well. A game, especially one for a younger audience, should be about the FUN. So many of these threads turn into a puffing of the chest, bragging rights type of declaration, when in the grand scheme of things, does it really matter? Competition is all well & good, but we shouldn't lose site of the FUN, especially in a virtual world & game.

(continued...)

devils advocate time
as a top player i dont boast of my skill simply because i enjoy boasting, i boast because usually when i do a challenger arises and i enjoy a challenge, its what makes this game fun and sometimes making another player angry is the best way to get them to preform their best, the want to put someone in their place is a powerful tool provided you have the knowledge to use it. i for one have never watched a video and used a strat from it ive always come up with my own because making your own strats and after failure after failure finally getting one right feels great, now for the op companions, you got me on baar and nausica, i got em cause people said they were good, but for goronado and zang cha i bought purely because they looked cool before i started heavy pvp, same with moo robe, thought the summons were useless until i got destroyed by them, the nefarious staff and banner and treant however, came to me in the shower where all the best thinking is, cause like i said i like to make my own strats, this one is one the fiesty orange adapted to musketeer and made a video on and even gave me credit for in the video, a good example of imitating a tactic seen, for pet traits and powers, yea everyone worked together on it but as for what powers and talents you want it to have your the mastermind behind that and directing that and working on it, its your strategy with it that makes it yours and not a culmination of everyones work, its a group effort to get the best stuff but unless you know what do to its a waste, it may be a group thing gathering the materials but its yourself that directs it making it yours, being the best at a class is important, because it means you use the knowledge of all the pvp enthusiasts the best, your the best at wielding that and that makes it worthy of praise, not everyone can do that and not everyone can stay up there on that pedestal, so anyone who makes it up there deserves some recognition, i agree fun is important but

ValkoorTheVictorio... on Jul 14, 2015 wrote:

(...continual)

It seems that there will always be something worth arguing over, in regards to PvP, because there will always be players at different talent levels & those that want to win & those that don't want to lose. There will always be players at the top boasting & bragging, & likewise those that struggle a bit more or haven't grasped the more 'elite' strategies. There will always be those at or near the top declaring that something is 'broken' or 'OP', when they are struggling to overcome. And there will always be a diligent & determined group trying to 'uncover' ways to overcome those 'broken or OP' things & develop the strategies to do so. Luck will always play some part in the outcomes & there will always be those that are on opposite ends of the 'luck spectrum'. There will be winners & losers, The Best(s) & The Not-Quite-the-Best(s) & those in between or those that follow. As well as sore losers & boastful winners. And there will always be those claiming that certain classes and/or powers are unbalanced and/or OP. Something will probably always seem unfair to certain players & not everything always needs to be changed or fixed. And not everything that can't be overcome or 'fixed', is actually, indeed 'broken'-- sometimes it's just what was meant to be. Sure, report the obvious bugs & improperly working facets & continue making suggestions to improve the system. But also just have fun, make the most of it & keep it enjoyable.

The more I read the 'PvP' threads, the more I am glad that I don't take part in PvP (at least not in a serious fashion). I'll still read them though because there's some absolutely great strategies in them. So, a big 'THANK YOU' to those that took the time to 'discover' & test them. You've helped a lot of players & I'm quite sure those that are not-so-modestly claiming to be the best, are thanking you for it as well...at least they should be-- because they wouldn't be there without you all helping to pave the way for & with them.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Valkoor, your eloquence and articulation is unmatched.

zuto4011a on Jul 14, 2015 wrote:

(...continual) that doesn't mean those who are the best should be disregarded, for me competition=fun, fun is a concept that is different to everyone, some people have fun trolling other people, some people have fun fighting fin farming for his weapon, some people have fun fighting each other, then there are some people like the fiesty orange who are always downers but lets move on, this game is about fun but fitting in everyones fun is difficult

I certainly agree and get that we all have different interpretations as to what is fun for each of us, as individuals.

But that is a good and bad thing. There are many people who engage in negative forms of fun. Some, unfortunately, find bullying fun. Some have their own brand of fun at others expense. Some engage in unlawful or inappropriate activities, just because they find it fun to them. Some are aggressive and disrespectful towards others because they get a kick out of it, again just so they can indulge in their own kind of fun.

There are many ways that many people have their own types of fun. I agree that there are different concepts of fun out there...not all of those concepts are 'right, positive and or good'-- even despite how much fun it is for one side. Just because having fun is a perceptual concept, it doesn't mean that anyone has the right to have fun at someone else's expense. And it doesn't mean that all forms of fun should be accepted or catered to.

When I spoke of just having fun, it was meant that we should have fun without it negatively affecting others and surely not at anyone else's expense.

So yes, by all means have your own form of fun. Just be respectful of others in the process. Competition is and should be fun...it's the other, negative, aspects of competition that make it not so much fun, at least for one side.

Blixet, I do apologize for going off-topic a bit, but sometimes I feel that certain things just have to be said. So back to the topic at hand. And thank you for the compliment above.

zuto4011a on Jul 15, 2015 wrote:

no i did not stop and assume they were based on me hence me saying devils advocate, i was merely arguing the less popular opinon

Fair enough, Robert. Just figured that with all the 'I's, details of what you actually do or have done and personal accounts you gave, that you were speaking more solely on your behalf and not as much as an encompassing of others' opinions and/or accounts.

I may not always agree with your points or 'posted courses of action', but I actually do always appreciate your input, knowledge and points of view. And even though I don't PvP, I've learned quite a lot from you and the other PvP enthusiasts out there. That's what my original post was more about. Giving credit to Wolf for displaying the 'less common', laid back PvP attitude and encouraging others to just have fun and limit the negativity that often accompanies PvP. Aaaaand to also show appreciation for those that have helped others learn about the game and combat-- which would certainly include you.

Blixet on Jul 18, 2015 wrote:

Hmm... I may have had a change of heart on the topic of Nerfing Black Fog. (I know, I know, Ratbeard has stated time and time again that if any changes will be made they will be made for PvE, but as always, i feel it is important for all members of the community to express their opinion.)

I experienced this while I was doing some test realm ranked pvp on my buck.

Anyway, I just had a fight with a Buckler v/s my Buck. It was the first fight I lost that was not based on Coin Spamming, but I still didn't feel like I truly had a chance. Round one, I leviathaned, Peter whaled, toro buffed. I knew that If I was gonna have a chance it was gonna be me charging down my opponent turn 2. they had nausica, toro, and flan. I was using Pete, hawk, and toro. their turn, they fogged. I put a fort on toro, and could do nothing else. turn 3, they moved closer. I still could do nothing. I had a great hand, but No AoEs, no ranged attacks, just charges, supers, and heals. I split my guys up so the buckler couldnt poison all of us. next turn, she poisoned and cursed me, here fan buffed, her toro buffed, nausica did nothing. Turn Five, I leviathaned again. She and fan buffed critical. Turn Six, she attacked. Her fan got super hit pete and got off a ton of relentless on toro. I didnt see if it was a critical or anything, but she attacked me and sent me down to less than half health, even though I had leviathan. her nausica supered me from hide as well, then double tapped peter, killing him, then missed twice trying to shoot toro. I was down, Pete was down, hawk was full, and toro was at half. I had toro and hawk attack fan, because the fight was over and i didn't feel like fleeing. next turn, she finished demolishing me.

So. This was one of my first experiences PvPing with my buck. It was not good. (my buck only recently got geared.) And it has warmed me considerably to the balances that I recommended in this post.

what say you, Community?

I would say you finally experience what many of us have been trying to tell the players claiming Fog is not broken. The problem has been made worse by the smaller sized board, the removal of frozen tide, and the buff stacking update.

As you said yourself, one single shield (levy or fortress) is not enough to keep even the tankiest class in the game (Buccaneer) alive. I will share my own experience of a battle as a Witch vs a Swashbuckler. I had a fortress while his whole team (Nausica, Fan, Yagi) was under fog. When he was close enough, the fortress did nothing. Hidden Assassin's Strike from the player, Hidden Nausica Super Critical Strike into double tap and burst fires, Hidden Fan Super Critical Strike into bladestorm and relentless. I was dead before Yagi even got to attack me with his own hidden + super critical combo.

With my pirate dead, my companions had no chance against the Swashbuckler who can just go hidden again with Walk in Darkness and slowly poison or assassin strike my companions to death. Even if I was to heal, it would be too easy for him to assassin me back down to 0 health.

I have beaten many Swashbucklers with non-Swashbuckler classes, but that is not the point. Is like me bragging about beating middle school soccer players when I play soccer in college. The problem comes when an experienced Swashbuckler is using Black Fog. A good Swashbuckler will know how to completely win a game just off a good utilized Black Fog alone.

Here is my prediction for when Ranked PvP goes live:

If nothing is changed about Black Fog, for every one non-Swashbuckler player that is ranked at Paragon or Champion, there will be 10 Swashbucklers up there with him. Ranked PvP at the highest level will be completely crowded with Swashbucklers.

Alex Hawkins on Jul 19, 2015 wrote:

I would say you finally experience what many of us have been trying to tell the players claiming Fog is not broken. The problem has been made worse by the smaller sized board, the removal of frozen tide, and the buff stacking update.

As you said yourself, one single shield (levy or fortress) is not enough to keep even the tankiest class in the game (Buccaneer) alive. I will share my own experience of a battle as a Witch vs a Swashbuckler. I had a fortress while his whole team (Nausica, Fan, Yagi) was under fog. When he was close enough, the fortress did nothing. Hidden Assassin's Strike from the player, Hidden Nausica Super Critical Strike into double tap and burst fires, Hidden Fan Super Critical Strike into bladestorm and relentless. I was dead before Yagi even got to attack me with his own hidden + super critical combo.

With my pirate dead, my companions had no chance against the Swashbuckler who can just go hidden again with Walk in Darkness and slowly poison or assassin strike my companions to death. Even if I was to heal, it would be too easy for him to assassin me back down to 0 health.

I have beaten many Swashbucklers with non-Swashbuckler classes, but that is not the point. Is like me bragging about beating middle school soccer players when I play soccer in college. The problem comes when an experienced Swashbuckler is using Black Fog. A good Swashbuckler will know how to completely win a game just off a good utilized Black Fog alone.

Here is my prediction for when Ranked PvP goes live:

If nothing is changed about Black Fog, for every one non-Swashbuckler player that is ranked at Paragon or Champion, there will be 10 Swashbucklers up there with him. Ranked PvP at the highest level will be completely crowded with Swashbucklers.

Yeah... I feel bad for just flipping sides like this, but what can I say? My mind was very decisively changed. Since that battle, I've played some more. I've had complete success against every class with my buck except for bucklers and a single witch who spammed coins summons and power summons.

Rob, take away crowns companions and Black Fog, then tell me that an equally skilled Swash would have even a sliver of hope to defeat you.

If yes, post that strategy. Because I honestly hate being reliant on Black Fog. It's slightly over powered but in all honesty, we swashies need that. Without our hides, we're just chew toys for the other classes. Especially the Privateers. You guys used to have swashies wrapped around your fingers. Protection cards to counter our damage, accuracy cards to counter our dodge (making it completely obsolete), and critical/buffs to capitalize on our low health. Without crowns companions no swash could beat you, and even then it'd be extremely difficult.

Man, with all the forts you guys can now have it's a wonder you still take any damage.

I don't want to be reliant on Black Fog, and I don't have the luxury of being reliant on crowns companions. As is, it's still incredibly difficult to beat you guys, (for those of us without sprocket key).

Tell me we don't need at least a little OP to balance out our squishy nature. We can't aid our companions any other way. You expect us to let them just die? You make it sound like we're supposed to be one-man armies, but we're not. Every moment we spend worrying about our companion's safety, we're dying, and every moment we worry about our own safety, our companions die. Fog is our way of giving ourselves a little breathing room. A little time to prep our companions and ourselves before heading out into battle.

The notion that we're supposed to be the first into battle is a sad misrepresentation. We cannot head into battle without the sufficient preparation, and neither can our companions. I often find myself buffing for the first 5-6 turns. Without BF, my companions would be long dead by then. With it, I'm able to go into battle fully prepped, just as my adversary is sure to be.

Reading all of this sure did start a fire among their Author's

Maybe in future updates, some of you may feel differently (in a positive way) about PVP?

Wolf SkullRider on Jul 20, 2015 wrote:

Before I respond to this, I want to say that I would consider myself among this "good" tier of swashbucklers. That said, I myself have witnessed my share of ranked matches on test realm, and I'd like to add on to what Alex has stated so far.

Let's say nothing was made PvE ONLY and and this change in battle boards in ranked remained constant. Yes, I'd bucklers would still have the upper hand in most cases, BUT since numerous "counters" to fog (Frozen Tide, Cornering, Stacking Shields/Buffs) have been made basically unreliable IN ranked pvp, I feel this is a COMPLETE and HANDS DOWN shut out to every single other class who does not have this amazing power to use. To be honest, the ONLY viable way to prevent a dead pirate in 2-3 rounds vs a fogged buckler team (Fan Nausica Goro/Keisuke being the big one), is to have a pet with scent 2/3.

Wait, relying on a pet JUST to beat a good buckler??? Yes, it is bizarre AND a roll of the dice if your pet doesn't show up early enough. Also honestly, what good are summons when someone has 5 entire rounds to plan a strike? Yes, you can Hide your pirate, but what good is that overall when your companions are then the ones going to be crushed? In scanerio, A solo Witchdoctor Vs a forted Nausica, critical/agility buffed Fan flanders, and a goat who just happens to have another hide AND heal on his own. Your companions are gone. You can't stack shields anymore, so would it be stretching it to say buckler is indisputably the top class RIGHT NOW going into ranked pvp (WITHOUT doubloons)? I completely disagree, it is a FACT.

All that said, I truly believe there are only ONE way to "fix" this CLEAR unbalance with fog. BANNING BLACK FOG from ranked, with these smaller battle boards and inability to stack shields/Buffs anymore, I think is the obvious route to take. Extreme? Crazy? Any word that describes a huge nerf,?YES, ABSOLUTELY!!! But truthfully, is it THAT extreme a decision? Or shall we listen to more "I got beat by fog" stories first?

Wolf I agree with the first part of your post, but I respectfully disagree with banning Black Fog from ranked PvP. I will repeat something I have said before, banning powers should not be the go to option when KI has the ability to change/nerf them if they are too strong.

It is already very disappointing the path which KI is taking by banning Infernal Wave, Frozen Tide and Blood Flames. All powers that by no means were overpowered at all and gave some classes a little bit of wiggle room to play with. The only ban I understand was the Charm ban BECAUSE they stated it was for a technical reason and how it interacted with the turn system, meaning once they fix that they plan to bring it back to ranked. Aside from technical glitches or bug, no power should be banned imo, instead they should be fixed to be more in line. The only exception to this are Doubloons, but those aren't really powers and more of like a completely different system.

For Black Fog, I honestly believe that a simple reduction from x2 damage buff to x1.5 damage buff would do the trick. What makes it overpowered is that every single companion gets a x2 damage buff on top of their Super Critical card that they use on you. At least the x1.5 nerf would prevent the really high damage from single companions. You will still lose one companion if the Buckler plays it right, but not 2 or your whole pirate the way you can now.

For Moo Robe, another OP power, instead of banning, I think the debuff idea to the summoner that Blixet had should be added. Just like how NovaBlaster reduces the dmg of the caster by 5 turns, maybe summoning the Warriors places a Focus Fire on the caster for 5 turns or just simply remove the Vicious Charges from the Warriors. The scorpions are not OP because they don't have the vicious, that's what makes the Warriors crazy strong even with the stacking debuff update.

ShadowStrikerV2 on Jul 20, 2015 wrote:

Rob, take away crowns companions and Black Fog, then tell me that an equally skilled Swash would have even a sliver of hope to defeat you.

If yes, post that strategy. Because I honestly hate being reliant on Black Fog. It's slightly over powered but in all honesty, we swashies need that. Without our hides, we're just chew toys for the other classes. Especially the Privateers. You guys used to have swashies wrapped around your fingers. Protection cards to counter our damage, accuracy cards to counter our dodge (making it completely obsolete), and critical/buffs to capitalize on our low health. Without crowns companions no swash could beat you, and even then it'd be extremely difficult.

Man, with all the forts you guys can now have it's a wonder you still take any damage.

I don't want to be reliant on Black Fog, and I don't have the luxury of being reliant on crowns companions. As is, it's still incredibly difficult to beat you guys, (for those of us without sprocket key).

Tell me we don't need at least a little OP to balance out our squishy nature. We can't aid our companions any other way. You expect us to let them just die? You make it sound like we're supposed to be one-man armies, but we're not. Every moment we spend worrying about our companion's safety, we're dying, and every moment we worry about our own safety, our companions die. Fog is our way of giving ourselves a little breathing room. A little time to prep our companions and ourselves before heading out into battle.

The notion that we're supposed to be the first into battle is a sad misrepresentation. We cannot head into battle without the sufficient preparation, and neither can our companions. I often find myself buffing for the first 5-6 turns. Without BF, my companions would be long dead by then. With it, I'm able to go into battle fully prepped, just as my adversary is sure to be.

with the buff update i'm getting steamrolled by people i used to flawless easy, you've had your privateer nerf, we've been nerfed to the ground, nerfed to the point of me wanting to quit, i hope your happy, privateers are no longer the great versatile class we once were, now we're the corner crew